Transcripts Of Leonard Pozner:
DEPOSITION OF DR. ROY LUBIT
STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT DANE COUNTY
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JAMES FETZER, et al.,
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DEPOSITION OF DR. ROY LUBIT
VOLUME I, PAGES 1-114
OCTOBER 5, 2019
(The following is the deposition of DR. ROY LUBIT, taken pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition,
at 165 West End Avenue, 3L, in the City of New York,
State of New York, commencing at approximately 12:19 o’clock p.m., October 5, 2019.)
Date: lol 1*41
Circuit Court Branch 8
On Behalf of the Plaintiff:
Emily L. Stedman
QUARLES & BRADY LLP
411 East Wisconsin Avenue
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202
On Behalf of Defendant James Fetzer:
Richard L. Bolton (via telephone)
Boardman & Clark, LLP
1 South Pinckney Street
PO Box 927
Ronald M. Huber, Videographer
Mr. Bolton PAGE 3, 102, 48,111
P R O C E E D I N G S
DR. ROY LUBIT,
Called as a witness, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. STEDMAN:
Q. Good afternoon. Dr. Lubit. My name is Emily Stedman,
I’m an attorney at Quarles & Brady in Milwaukee, and I represent Leonard Pozner in this case. For the purpose of the record, if there is something that you do not understand, please ask me
and I will try to rephrase. If you do not tell me. I’ll assume you understand. Is that okay?
A. Yes .
Q. Please state your full name.
A. Roy Lubit.
Q. And Mr. Dr. Lubit, can you explain to the jury why you cannot appear in Madison for the trial in this case?
A. A combination of personal and work reasons. I am a single parent, it’s a three-day weekend, the trial starts during that weekend, and the following week I have to be away for two trials. I can neither do that much time away, and it’s not fair to my family and it would be exhausting, I wouldn’t be in good enough shape for the second trials.
Q. Please tell the jury about your education following high school.
A. I went to college at Cornell Medical School at New York University. I then went to Yale to do psychiatry. There’s a year of internal medicine. which I was at Greenwich Hospital, part of the Yale program, and then three years of psychiatry in New Haven. Then I spent two years in Boston at Boston Children’s, studying child psychiatry. Then I had an Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship. I had been approached by the government about doing work on foreign leaders, and I then, in prelude to that, started taking some courses at the — at Harvard in international relations and then decided to stay around and wound up doing a Ph.D. program and practicing psychiatry during those years part-time. Returned to New York in ’97, did some work in psychiatry. And then in 2001 I went back to training and did a Forensic Psychiatry Fellowship at St. Vincent’s. St. Vincent’s is the closest major medical center to Ground Zero, and my boss, Spencer Eth, happened to be an international expert on PTSD. And so much of the time that year was spent dealing with emotional trauma and writing papers, giving lectures, going to symposium on emotional trauma.
Q. Did you specialize in anything while obtaining your MD at NYU?
A. There is no specialization during medical school.
Q. How long does medical school take?
A. Four years.
Q. And then you did a psychiatry residency. How long did that take?
A. It’s a year of either a rotating internship or a year of medicine, which is what I did, and then three years of psychiatry work.
Q. Did you work with adults during that time?
A. That first three years was entirely adults.
Q- How long did your child psychiatry residency take?
A. That’s two years.
Q. How long did your Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship take?
A. That was — It was half-time for two years, and then the first year I was also spending half-time on a
consultation-liaison service, and the Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship was adult psychiatry.
Q- And what is a — what is an Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship?
A. I’m not sure how to describe it other than what the — what the term is used. It’s getting extra training. So we saw a number of patients, we had lots of supervision, lots of seminars. During a psychiatry residency, you do many different things. You certainly do some psychotherapy, but a great deal of time is spent admitting people to in-patient units, working on in-patient units, diagnosis, prescribing medications. Part of my time was working on medical wards, seeing people who were having psychiatric problems. And the Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship I had more experience treating patient — outpatients one-on-one I did during my residency.
Q. And did you treat adults during your Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship?
A. Yes. That — The two years of Advanced Psychotherapy Fellowship and three years of psychiatry at Yale were all adults.
Q. And you also mentioned a forensic psychiatry fellowship.
Q. What does that mean?
A. Forensic psychiatry is the part of psychiatry in which you do evaluations for legal purposes. So custody evaluations is in the rubric of forensic psychiatry, personal injury evaluations, and criminal issues, which can be things such as not guilty by reason of insanity, whether someone is ready to go on to trial, false confession issues. My area is more heavily personal injury issues, emotional trauma, some traumatic brain injury.
Q. And did you examine adults during your forensic psychiatry fellowship?
A. That was entirely — That was almost entirely adult work.
Q. Once you completed the education portion. did you obtain any certifications?
A. Yes .
Q. Tell us about them.
A. Before I even began the child work, I took the boards in psychiatry. To become board certified you need to go through an accredited fellowship and then take exams. So at the time that I was doing it there was a written exam, and if you pass that, there is an oral exam. And I passed that in — a year or so — after I finished my adult training, before I finished my child training. I was then board certified in adult psychiatry. Then at the time that I was doing child psychiatry people weren’t bothering to get their Boards, and I didn’t afterwards. But after my 12:26:03 7 fellowship I was asked to stay on at New York Medical College as an assistant professor, and then I was hired away by Mount Sinai to come and teach and do work on PTSD. And with those opportunities I then went and took my Boards in child psychiatry and passed them, and Boards in forensic psychiatry. The first set of Boards — At that point in time they were for life, the general psychiatry. The child and forensic boards are for 10 years. And I took them, oh, a few years ago I recertified, and I’ll be having to do that again in about three years.
Q. And to the extent you haven’t already done so, can you describe for the jury your experience related to trauma in adults?
A. I reviewed it pretty much, but the — I mean certainly there were traumatized individuals that I saw during my adult training, people who had been through various sorts of highly stressful events.
12:27:16 25 With the work at St. Vincent’s it was very heavily focused because again we’re — saw large numbers of people from the World Trade Center. And then in the 3 years after, many of the people who have come to me have had traumatic events and the — probably more than half of my work in forensic psychiatry is — has been doing personal injury evaluations, and those are all people who — some had near-death experiences. some were sexually assaulted, various very stressful experiences that fit the diagnostic criteria for PTSD.
Q. Have you conducted research and publications on adult emotional trauma?
A. I’ ve — Most of my publications are on child trauma. but child trauma is everything in adult trauma plus a little bit more, because the diagnostic criteria for young children are different. But the criteria for adults are the same as for adolescents, but I also have — I am one of two authors on an article on PTSD in adults.
Q. Can you describe for the jury what your article. Integrating Our Understanding of Classical and Betrayal Trauma, is about?
A. There — The research in — Let me start again with this. It’s Most diagnoses in psychiatry are based upon a constellation of symptoms, so you — if someone comes to you and they have a low mood, can’t enjoy things, difficulty concentrating, sleep problems, appetite changes. energy — low energy, these individuals are going to be diagnosed as depressed. How much of that is due to biology, how much is due to recent stresses, how much of that is due to childhood traumatic experiences that are now affecting them is left out of the diagnostic picture. And then people look to see, all right, what can cause depression.
PTSD can appear very differently, and PTSD has always been dependent upon having experienced a set stressor. The exact definition of that stressor has changed over time, but generally it is being
12:29:58 15 exposed to an incident which at least threatens — which threatens or causes severe injury. With DSM-5 it changed to being exposed to, so that work — people who work with victims, and people who have a close family member go through an event, they can also meet diagnostic criteria. Because we were seeing that the workers, particularly workers down at Ground Zero were coming down with the same symptoms as those who had — were in the building and almost died. So there’s been — So that’s the PTSD side of things. Then various people have noticed that there are experiences which do not fit those criteria but which lead to similar symptoms. And some of that is betrayal in a relationship can lead to similar symptoms.